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Some people just don't have a clue...

...yet want to sound like they do.  I would love to see the like of Jay Roxe (Microsoft) put in a room with this Tom fellow and see the sparks fly.  This guy claims that he has the “inside” track as to what Microsoft is thinking in regards to the future of Visual Basic.  This guy just doesn't have a clue.  The MVP Summit is the “inside” track and with programs like VB Insiders existing where some people (including myself) can interact directly with the VB team.  When I say interaction, they are interacting in a one-on-one basis, providing insight into the future of the language very far into the inception phase.  I personally saw (while at the Summit) many things that were purely just prototypes and ideas in the making to get feedback well before the actual planning phases of the next release (after Windows Vista).

Visual Basic is here to stay... and no amount of “opinion” will change that.  I would love for this guy to provide me with his so-called inside sources so I could pass them along to various people at Microsoft so they could be educated.  I'm not saying there aren't people inside of Microsoft saying what this guy is saying... but just because there *might* be people at Microsoft saying what this guy is saying (which I doubt and I'll get to why in a minute) doesn't mean those people know what they are talking about.  Just because they work at Microsoft doesn't mean they speak for *all* of Microsoft or know what *Microsoft's* plans are.  I really doubt that a team the size of the VB product team exists just to make a few developers happy until they “kill” the product.  Also, with the release of Visual Studio 2005 at the end of this year, that puts it on the road map for support for at next 10+ years.

Now let me make a few facts clear:

  • “Visual Basic is the most used language in the world.“  That is quoted for a reason.  Those are not my words.  They are Microsoft's words.  With that being said, from a purely monetary reason, Microsoft is not going to “abandon“ a product just to get people to switch to what some would consider “superior“.  Superior is quoted since I don't believe that C++, C# or any other language is superior than VB.  I don't consider VB to be superior than any other language.  In the end, I do believe that VB is the most productive language for both initial development and, more importantly, maintenance.
  • Microsoft .NET (as Tom states) is *not* written in C++.  The majority of the .NET Framework is written in C# with significant portions written in VB.   Obviously there are portions that are written in C++; some of this due to legacy integration, existing code-base within Visual Studio (no since in rewriting code for the sake of just rewriting code) and *raw* performance reasons.  C++ isn't dead, but it also is not the *only* language that Microsoft is using to develop and ship shrink wrapped products to the end user.

What is VB for?  What is it's place in the world?  Well, let's see what the Microsoft folks have to say...

For line of business application developers, Visual Basic 2005 is the most productive tool for developing Windows, Web, Office and Mobile applications.

That is the value proposition statement directly from the VB team.  What does it mean?  Well, I suppose there could be some lost in translation in what exactly “line of business application developers” are.  While there, I asked this question.  Pretty much any application that has to deal with data and will be used anywhere from internally (corporate) and to applications that are shrink wrapped to end users.  Notice that the statement is clearly stating Windows, Web, Office and Mobile.  Is VB8 perfect in this regard?  Not perfect, but neither is *any* other product.  There's now a vision and that vision is clear.  VB is meant to be the “most productive tool” and will continue to evolve in that regard.

In the end, I'm not going to change the mind of people like this guy Tom... but you better believe that I'm not going to let his voice bury mine in regards to VB's place in the world.  He has every right to say whatever he wants, but I have every right to respond.  My facts are clear and I will be very happy to provide names, places, dates and any other information upon request.  I'm also not anonymous in this regard.  Trolls, Trolls, Trolls... not just for newsgroups and forums any more. ;-)

Follow Up:

Mr. Somasegar's blog has a few comments on the subject of VB's place in the world.  Who is this guy anyway?  Well, he *runs* the developer division at Microsoft.  In regards to development languages, this guy is the *boss*.  To save you the clicking, here's a direct quote from him; “...let me talk about how serious we are about Visual Basic – we’re 120% committed to the language and the product not just today but for a long, long, long time to come...“.  Can't get any more first hand than that, can you?

Published Monday, October 03, 2005 1:18 AM by CorySmith
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Comments

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Monday, October 03, 2005 5:05 AM by Wesner Moise
Not to pop your bubble...

I guess that when you say "significant" portions of the .NET Framework is written in Visual Basic, you mean the Visual Basic Runtime. You won't find anything in Rotor, Avalon and Indigo...

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Monday, October 03, 2005 12:42 PM by Cory Smith
OK, at what point is something considered significant? And... from the buzz I was hearing from many C# MVP's... many of them consider My to be pretty significant in the way they will write software in the future.

By significant, I mean a large enough amount to be noticable (or having a huge impact). However, to see other definitions of significant, see http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:significant

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:49 AM by John
Mr. Smith,

Assume this: VB 2005 is the last ever release of VB.

Does that make a lier out of anyone at Microsoft? What's their support cycle? 6 years main support? And then an additional 3 for extended support? And then you're on your own. That's 9 years of support. Well, isn't that a "long, long, long time" in the life-cycle of a langauge? And don't they give "120%" for support (depending on your point of view)? Newer versions come out much sooner than that.

So, what's my point? You can't proove Tom wrong. Just because you're an MVP and are a little closer to the Microsoft PR, doesn't mean you're correct. It's like you're saying that since Microsoft didn't bad mouth VB, then they're going to keep it hands down. Sorry, but that doesn't have to be true. And look at your quotes, you sound like you're a Microsoft VB sales rep.

Also, if I were trying to keep a language around but be non-commital to it, I'd write it's runtime in itself. Then there's no cross language integration and I can drop it at will. I think that's why the .NET runtime is written in both VB and C#. C# is new, and there's no reason to commit, yet. VB is a language that is highly varied in it's staying power. And I agree with Sean here, sort of: it was the testing ground for COM, and MFC has gone out of it's way to not be COM. Otherwise, Sean needs to to stop trolling and grow up.

Do you think we can refrain from the immature ad hominem attacks (and hope Sean doesn't follow here)? Then we might get some real insight into this. Otherwise, I think Tom's comments are worthwhile to consider before blowing off like has been done here. Maybe it's best to prepare for the worst and hope for the best here.

Where I got my time for support cycle:
The VB6 product life-cycle:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/support/vb6.aspx

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:23 AM by Cory Smith
Some of the quotes I was presenting were for a reason. As VB is the most used language, it would be idiotic for Microsoft to "abandon" that customer base. But, let's look at a few other quotes by Somasegar:

"Today, we have well over 100 people in my division devoted to Visual Basic (program management, dev, test, user education, support)."

For a language they aren't committed to... that's a lot of peopled devoted to it.

"We know you’ve noticed because we’ve seen a substantial increase in the number of you using Visual Basic .NET over the last year."

I can't repeat the numbers I saw, but I can say that they is definitely a substantial increase in developers moving to VB.NET. Again, if it's growing, why would Microsoft "abandon" that money. They aren't stupid. They develop products that people want to buy... thus get paid.

"In fact, some of our core applications which are used to manage our personnel, office space and annual performance reviews, are Windows Forms applications written in Visual Basic on the .NET platform."

Do you really think that Microsoft would take the time and expense to rewrite these internal applications in another language just because of some weak superiority complex? The fact is that they have usable, mission critical applications developed in VB.

"But it goes further than that. In Visual Studio 2005, we’re using VB for some of the framework classes, and there are portions of the VS IDE written in VB."

People seem to get hung up on the fact that C# is primarily used to develop .NET and it's what Microsoft is using; however, it is a fact that the VB runtime is written in VB and, as Mr. Somasegar points out, that portions of the Visual Studio IDE are written in VB. Yes... this means that some of the tools you are using to build products utilizing another language are, in fact, leveraging features inside of Visual Studio that are written in VB. One might wonder which portions of the IDE are written in VB. Does it really matter? Does the end user (in this case, developers) really care?

What about the future of VB? Again, some things I can't specifically comment upon; but I can say that (since some of them have been announced at PDC05) that the announcements regarding LinQ and such look very promising within VB. I even ran into several people who attended the LinQ discussions presented by none-other than Anders Helsberg and they were lost among all the terminology... it was all about the academic side of things. There were many people who (C# MVP's) who visited the (basically) same presentation in VB and were very impressed by the features and just got it. For the most part, the two languages are on board equally for these new features; but... VB, I think, is going to be a clear winner on the subject. This is because VB already has a head start in the world of dynamic languages (late-binding) and it's clear to see this with what they are doing with XML in the language.

Sure, I might sound like a sales person... but the simple truth of the matter is that VB is very powerful. It is not a second class citizen and people who don't take it seriously are doing nothing but hurting themselves. To go around spouting how great some other language is and not giving any respect to VB is, well, let's be blunt, criminal.

What you will be seeing of VB in the coming years will be amazing... and, so far, VB is square in the middle of every road map Microsoft has made public (totally public and NDA public). What's after that? Who the hell really knows. But my gut tells me that VB will still be around long after all of the current plans have come to fruition and far beyond that. It might change in some very significant ways in order to keep up with technology... but that's been the case up till today and I don't see that trend stopping any time soon.

Personally, I think that there are future trends that will be taking place that VB will be extremely well suited for. Mainly this is in regards to making complicated tasks simpler. Other languages (just pick one), I believe, will choose to take the more academic route and those same tasks will be complicated. Want a second opinion?

Mike Gunderloy (Larkware) states [1] "Ian Griffiths explains some of the advanced syntax of C# 3.0. I freely admit that my eyes glazed over. As far as I'm concerned, C# is now going the way of C++: it's got syntax that I will never, ever use and is well on its way to complexifying its way out of my life." I love how he puts it... complexifying. That pretty much sums it up.

[1] - http://www.larkware.com/dg4/TheDailyGrind723.html

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:06 AM by John
Mr. Smith,

Useable? Yes, VB has its uses. Mission Critical? I think that remains to be seen. What apps did they rewrite? Were they core or peripheral? If they were peripheral, then it's an experiment. Since this is the first time in history that they've used VB internally.

Nonetheless, you still haven't proven Tom wrong. COBOL was at once the language of choice besides FORTRAN. Now where is it? Simply, you just don't know Microsoft's direction, you're defending a company who has an agenda that you just plainly don't know. Public Relations is very powerful. And, well, perhaps they're trying to wean people off of VB and onto C# (look at how Microsoft turned its back on Windows 95 in favor of NT)? Maybe that's why they invented the language? You just don't know what Microsoft is truly thinking. And who does, but the play-makers at Microsoft when they're behind closed doors? Out in public is a different story, and I don't think that can be denied. I honestly don't think that losing the stream of income from VB is going to hurt them too terribly much, considering you almost never buy just VB, but instead a package of languages. Companies would complain about the loss, and then get over it because nobody else produces VB. Microsoft would have a conversion package. Otherwise, their alternatives are things like Adelphi, Borland C++, etc.

And, perhaps Mike Gunderloy just doesn't understand the usefulness of the new features? btw, I don't know the features mentioned, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate on this one. Complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it? The complexities in English makes it about the best language to express scientific ideas in. Having studied other languages and being a physicist, I think I have a good perspective on this one. btw, what syntax is so complicated in C++/C#? Anyway, why do you seem to hate C so much? I thought this was about the staying power of VB.

Does the end-user really care? Yes. There are some annoyingly clunky parts of the Visual Studio IDE. My guess is those clunky parts are written in VB. VB isn't quite there, yet, in my opinion.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is you just don't know. That, I think is hard to deny.

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 11:12 AM by BigMan
Mr. John,

It's evident that you are a pinhead of the highest order. Please take your elitist bullsh*t and go play elsewhere before you are crushed like the little girlyman you are. Guess it really bothers your little ego that VB "duh-velopers" are actually providing values to businesses with their silly little apps.

As a side-note; your logic about anything clunky in the IDE being VB is insane. It just proves you're an a*s of a large magnitude and have no idea of what you're talking about. If it IS clunky, then it's WinForms itself that is clunky _perhaps_ (written in C#/C++) not VB as a language you idiot.

Guess what I'M trying to say is YOU just don't know. That, I think is hard to deny and must be very threathing to a little VB-hater like yourself.

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:17 PM by Cory Smith
Hmmm... although the true technology involved is Office and XML, this "little" project [1]within Microsoft (EMEA) that is deployed across 60+ office locations across 139 countries and territories and 12,000 employees. It's written in... wait for it... Visual Basic .NET 2003. I don't know about you, but helping to streamline communications and "saving up to two hours a day by receiving one succinct mail that contains all they need to know" sounds like something that could be called mission critical to their business. This is just one of many...

[1] - http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/CaseStudy.asp?CaseStudyID=16615

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:49 PM by Joe Fuentes
Wow, what can I say.

I want to pass on some solid advice.

1) Lets say the total support for a product form MS is 9 years, VB 05 is releasing towards the end of this year which puts it in support till 2014, they are already working on the next version, we saw demos. The next version will probably be released in 2 years time. This then adds on to the support length to 2016 with no indication of not continuing support and new development.

2) Good thing MS doesn't listen to it's developers to make business decisions. While there, I heard from plenty of C++ developers complain about having to move to managed. They simply didn't like it, though my experience with C++ die hard’s is that they never like losing control over anything. Tom might be hearing from MS employee's about C++ and all, but if he's an MVP and attended the talk that Steve gave on Thursday, then he would know that MS keeps an ear to customers and a ear to the future. If we left it to some people, we would still be in char based systems and no GUI.

3) I've done my fair share of C++ and continue to do it, I know do C++ wrappers around VB.NET assemblies to expose Managed classes to Native to run via our old Char based application (probably the reverse of what others are doing). I've also noticed that of all the major langs, MS has been treating managed C++ like a red headed step child, if anyone has room to complain is every Managed C++ developer.

4) There will always be a need for a Basic Lang in the MS library, if you think not, then your only fooling yourself. There are two types of people out there, C and B, C people are very code based, code focused as some would say, they even count thier lines of code and do anything possible to cut down the lines of code. They would spend weeks making an array sort better if you let them. Then there are B people, they should be P for productive, these people tend to have a life outside of software development, most do not have a CS degree, but write real world applications for real world problems. These people do not want to figure out the difference between 1 ? and 2 ??, they just want to be able to read what’s going on and get the job done. I think the biggest reason C people dislike B people is because the B people are doing the same work, and didn't have to go though hell and back to get a CS degree to do it (most of the time).

I think most of the time, people get so hyped up on theory they forget implementation. The world isn't in theory, but rather in implementation. I’ve seen shops that are mainly C++ shops take months on a project that should only take weeks, all due to over thinking every aspect. All for a product that didn’t need that level of thought. I’ve known people to go to the ends of the earth to build the perfect video library program with no datasets, because it was faster to used typed collections. I’ve seen people build a website that will never I repeat never (because it’s so specialized) receive very many hits, but over build it for no other reason then a maybe. This is the difference I see.

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:54 PM by Joe Fuentes
Also wanted to note, that in my past talks with many C# developers, they all think C++ is a relic who's time has passed and many think it's a dead language or soon to be a dead language, this from die hard C# developers. While most of them only think VB is a childs toy, they don't see it as dead, just unprofessional. I note this because I think it rather funny that C++ die hard's are so easy on C# when C# die hard's could care less about C++. Almost like a parent with a teenage child.

# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Tuesday, October 04, 2005 10:40 PM by Anthony
"they all think C++ is a relic who's time has passed and many think it's a dead language or soon to be a dead language, this from die hard C# developers. While most of them only think VB is a childs toy..."

Kind of illustrates the point that most programmers (especially C++ programmers, but now perhaps C# programmers as well) are arrogant and full of themselves.

If VB is a toy language, then so is C#. What is the real difference anyway? Syntax! What is their justification? If you use If/Then/End If you are using a "toy" language, but if you use If (){} then you are a real programmer?

I am not a real C++ proponent (unless you are writing for speed, or need direct access to memory). However, although I dont agree with their perspective regarding VB, I can SEE their perspective. I can't see the C# developers perspective though.

I am still working at a company that is trying to "commit" to a longterm language to use for future "shinkwrap" applications. We are primarily using VB6 (with some C++ 6.0), but need to move on eventually (obviously). This discussion of the "uncertainty" surrounding Microsoft Development kind of highlights our concerns with .NET in general. We also dont (currently) see .NET as a viable platform to develop commercial software on. I would love to hear feedback on that one (what ARE commerical software companies using to develop Windows Apps that can be sold)?

Thanks -



# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:08 PM by AlaskaCPU
It began with Net 2002, 2003, and now 2005. And oh, 2007 is on it's way! Oh, and the Thousands of dollars spent on these upgrades - wasted in the wind - as the VS-Team of M$ states - we think we got it right this time!

Please! Visual Studio Net 2005 is a joke - when it comes to programming. You couldn't give me a free business application built on NET and I would settle for any C++ application over Net any day of the week!

VS-NET 2005 has too many bugs! The TEAM! attempted to do too many things - rather than take lessons from the older versions of VS. And what ever happen to Service Packs? M$ wants these upgrades - because it helps PAY-THE-WAY - for this new technology!

Let me know when NET becomes a real program!

Mike





# re: Some people just don't have a clue...

Monday, May 29, 2006 12:57 AM by Anthony
My comments and perspective on the VB6 debate:

onenerd.blogspot.com/2006/05/my-perspective-on-visual-basic-6.html
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